A champagne socialist reflects on Western culture and the Universe... and whilst gazing at his navel, he comes up with a lot of useless lint. It is the fruits of this navel-gazing that form the substance of this blog.
Published on November 2, 2005 By Champas Socialist In Politics
I don’t get why people get such a major hang-up about homosexuality. I can understand people believing that there is a God who outlaws non-procreative sex. But I don’t understand why denouncing homosexuality seems to be such a high priority for many Christians. You don’t see Bishop Pell rushing out to say what a blight adultery is on our society. Nor do you see blokes who go out gay-bashing also going out adulterer-bashing. Yet no matter what religion you are, adultery’s a bad thing. The abhorrence or otherwise of homosexuality on the other hand is simply a matter of opinion. And in the West we like our freedom of choice right? If you want to be a Muslim, you can. If you want to be a Christian, you can. If you want to be a homosexual (a fantastic religion), you can.

It’s strange that the 10 Commandments seem to be lower priorities for Fred Nile and Family First than their anti-homosexuality stance. If Christians believe that homosexual parenting is wrong in God’s eyes, they are free to do so. They are equally free to believe that Muslim parenting is equally wrong in God’s eyes. But this does not mean that their religious persuasions should become law. We live in a society that believes in freedom of religion. Let’s maintain that.

So why then don’t we allow gay marriage or adoption? Quite frankly it seems to me like blatant discrimination and a restriction on freedom of religion. Mr Howard’s explanation was that marriage has always been about the continuation of the species. But plenty of people get married and don’t have children, whether that be through choice or inability. If Mr Howard could, would he make marriage rights dependent on procreation rather than marital commitment?

Some people (like the aforementioned Fred Nile) have tried to suggest a link between homosexuality and paedophilia. Apart from the fact that there is absolutely nothing to suggest any such link exists, we also know that a lot of paedophiles are heterosexual Christians. Perhaps there should be a party set up calling for the end of the priesthood. The other important difference being that homosexuality is a consensual act (except in the case of rape). Paedophilia is not. That is why we object to paedophilia.

Which brings me to homosexual adoption. FishHead will be pleased to know I read Andrew Bolt’s dissertation on the subject. He’ll also be unsurprised to read that I thought it was a load of poppycock. Bolt argued that there was not enough evidence available on homosexual parenting to know whether it has negative effects on the child. I am curious to know what exactly Mr Bolt expects to be the possible negative effects. Let’s have a think about it shall we? Thinking logically, what is it that homosexual parenting is supposed to cause?

About all Mr Bolt could come up with was suggesting that the children of homosexual parents are more promiscuous than children of heterosexual parents. This is an unsurprising stat. Stats about the children of heterosexual parents would include a lot of children from backgrounds that do not believe in premarital sex. So that would lower the average amount of promiscuity amongst children of hetties. Whereas I can’t imagine too many homosexual parents being of that persuasion. But anyway, won’t promiscuity help with the aforementioned continuation of the species (among hetties)?

On JU I have seen it argued that homosexual parents cannot possibly teach their children what it means to ‘be a man’ or to ‘be a woman’. Unfortunately that Texan blogger never elaborated on exactly what they meant by that. What exactly is it that children are supposed to learn from their parents about their gender conformity? And in what way do we currently test potential adoptive parents for their ability to teach it? When a married heterosexual couple front up to the adoption agency, do they ask the Dad to grunt and name the front row of the local football team, followed by a conversation about revving the engine? Is the mother taken to another room where she is asked to paint a room in as many shades of pink as she can find, rustle up a five course meal and balance a book on her head while she walks? Is there in fact any test of potential adoptive parents’ ability to teach their children what it means to ‘be a man’ or to ‘be a woman’? (Let’s just for the moment ignore the fact that these people usually argue that gender conformity is ‘natural’, which I would have thought meant that they are things that do not need to be taught). Are there any follow up tests to ensure that adopted boys are not becoming mummy’s boys? Are teachers required to report the parents to the relevant authorities if they notice that an adopted daughter is being allowed to play soccer and wear boyish clothes?

Or do we simply test potential adoptive parents for their ability to love and provide nutrition? If this is the case, then these are the standards that should be applied to all potential adoptive parents, be they hetero or homosexual or whatever other label you want to put on them.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Nov 13, 2005
Baker? Baker? Hello? No reply to maso?
on Nov 13, 2005
No, I wasn't going to, since I saw it as a "who me" backpedal after trying to sound cool, but okay...

" I was pointing out that some people shouldn't have children, and some households, even 'religous' households, do as much damage to a child as a any other."


Sorry, that just doesn't jive with the line:

"Hear, hear. I wish the narrow minded conservatives who are so vocal about this issue would remember the poor tortured children who have grown up in religious households. "


Maybe dynamaso misspoke, but to me it sounded like he was using sarcasm as a "pretty lowly form of offense". "Religious housholds" have been the consistant basis of western society as a whole for, oh, the last thousand years or so.

No one can claim they know gay marriage provides the same stability, and will be as abusive as infrequently, mainly because it is so new an idea that no one has that data. Dynamoso is basically saying "Oh yeah, what about the smallest minority of kids that grow up in "religious households"? Those are the aberation, the exception to the rule.

We don't even know what the standard is for gay child rearing, so it is facetious to pretend that any random arrangement would be as good as "religious households", abusing all those "poor tortured kids". He was talking out of his ass, frankly. Granted, it makes people sound all cool to bash religion, I guess.
on Nov 13, 2005
Baker, I was neither trying to be cool or backpedaling. I meant what I said and stick by it. Just because you disagree with my point of view doesn't make you any more right. Obviously, I touched a raw nerve and you've again reduced the discussion to name calling. Lets just agree to disagree, okay?
on Nov 18, 2005
Maso, the problem is not that you disagree. The problem is that BS likes to play the victim. He is constantly complaining that someone has said something that they haven't. He seems to be under the delusion that even though you grew up in a religious household that you believe religious parenting is a form of child abuse, when quite clearly you worded it to say that there have been religious households who have been a huge problem too. There's no denying that. The large majority of paedophiles are heterosexual men and quite a proportion are Christian. Most Christian parents agre good, as you know. But for Christians to try to hold the moral high ground they try to claim to comes across as nothing more than blatant hypocrisy to the rest of us.

Make no mistake. There will be bad homosexual parents. But there is no data to suggest there would be any higher proportion of bad gay parents that are bad than the proportion of hettie parents who are bad parents. But I'm sure BS will be able to twist my words into being some sort of anti-Christian rant even though a very large portion of my friends, even my best friends attend church every week and believe strongly. I guess I'm just one of those anti-Christian, leftist bigots.
on Nov 18, 2005
"But for Christians to try to hold the moral high ground they try to claim to comes across as nothing more than blatant hypocrisy to the rest of us. "


For people who feel homosexuality is immoral, those who oppose it WOULD be on the moral high ground, wouldn't they? To many people, some would suppose most people, homosexuality is a deviant behavior with little difference in nature to child molestation or any other perversion. "Christians abuse kids too" is silly, given abusing kids isn't a Christian behavior any more than it is a homosexual behavior.

Sexual deviance may come in many varied flavors for you, but to some people it is all degrees of the same flaw. Your problem is you are coming from the perspective that homosexuality is "okay". That isn't universal, and some would say it isn't even pervasive. "Christians" on the whole don't see child molesters as any different, or any more "christian" than homosexuals. To them they are both sexual deviants.

In this, as in everything you write, you are incapable of seeing the situation from any other moral perspective than your own. You treat everyone as if they are hypocrites, each knowing down deep that they are somehow wrong but sticking to it anyway. On the contrary, they have a fundamentally different definition of homosexuality than you do, and it is ignorant to sit there and pretend that you can use your own moral scale to judge their moral values.

Nothing swoops down out of nature and declares your ideals to be correct. You subjectively deem homosexuality to be morally equal to heterosexuality, and I support your right to believe that. On the other hand you dismiss anyone who differs offhand, pretending your own subjectivity is somehow superior to theirs.

You and others so easily make opposing homosexual freedoms an evil act, do you find it odd that people who differ with you do the same in reverse? They are just the other side of the coin you live on.
on Nov 22, 2005
Look, the way I see it I'm as entitled to my opinion as Baker is or anyone else, for that matter. I just don't see the need for people to reduce discussions to name calling and insults. All that does is piss people off and close any further chance of dialogue. When people, particularly people who don't know me, tell me I'm 'talking out of my ass', for instance, then there is not much chance that I will listen to or regard anything else they might say.

I appreciate different opinions and view points, particularly those that stimulate and challenge my way of thinking. Despite the verbal argy-bargy, this has been one of those occasions. Thanks Champas.
on Nov 22, 2005
>>Your problem is you are coming from the perspective that homosexuality is "okay".>You treat everyone as if they are hypocrites, each knowing down deep that they are somehow wrong but sticking to it anyway.<<

I don't think that was the point at all. And as for hypocrites... back to the Christianity argument you've been using: Hypocrisy runs the church. Yes, I come from a non-believing background, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a hypocritical state of affairs that takes a 'holier than thou' (no pun intended) attitude on EVERYTHING that APPEARS different to this weeks belief of the week!

I made a statement about homosexuality in the animal kingdom in my earlier response (read back a bit, you'll find it), how does THAT fit into your argument of sexual deviance? How does the church and your personal ideology respond to THAT argument? And no, I'm not off topic. The sexual behaviour of animals does not differ from the sexual behaviour of humans. The homosexuality debate is ALL about sexual behaviour. Yes, some are disagreeable behaviours, but to claim that just because someone prefers the sexual company of someone of the same (or similar) gender is 'deviant', is to say that anyone who likes to keep animals as pets is a beastophile (or whatever the term is for someone who commits acts of beastiality). It's ridiculous. Try getting to know a few 'homosexuals'.

Why sexual behaviours even factor into a debate about how to raise a child baffle me beyond words.
on Nov 23, 2005
"Hypocrisy runs the church."


Given it promotes what it considers to be a perfect lifestyle, and yet people are imperfect, hypocricy kind of goes with the territory, don't you think? If you find a religion that dictates we be exactly what we are, let me know. We could all be instant saints...

"The sexual behaviour of animals does not differ from the sexual behaviour of humans."


In your system of values, sure. Christian religion differentiates between the animal kingdom and humanity. You'll find animals do a lot of stuff we aren't allowed to do via Christian doctrine.

That's the problem with judging other people's values based upon your own, which seems to be what is being condemned here. You think what you find in nature is natural, and natural is okay. I had a cat that ate half its kittens. Eat half your offspring next time you have a litter and see how that goes...

You'll pardon me if I find it hypocritical for pro-homosexuality folks to harshly judge Christians based upon their subjective values when that is what they are condemning Christians for doing...


"Yes, some are disagreeable behaviours, but to claim that just because someone prefers the sexual company of someone of the same (or similar) gender is 'deviant', is to say that anyone who likes to keep animals as pets is a beastophile (or whatever the term is for someone who commits acts of beastiality)."


Eh, not everyone with a pet has sex with it. As for "deviant" here's the definition. You decide if it fits:

Main Entry: de·vi·ant
Pronunciation: -&nt
Function: adjective
: deviating especially from an accepted norm
- deviant noun

By the Webster's definition, homosexuality is deviant behavior. Your own definition may vary, as would that of Christians. Unless you have some reason to promote yours as an objective reality, you're not working from anything more than Christians.
on Nov 24, 2005
>>Eh, not everyone with a pet has sex with it.>Given it promotes what it considers to be a perfect lifestyle, and yet people are imperfect, hypocricy kind of goes with the territory, don't you think? If you find a religion that dictates we be exactly what we are, let me know. We could all be instant saints...>In your system of values, sure. Christian religion differentiates between the animal kingdom and humanity. You'll find animals do a lot of stuff we aren't allowed to do via Christian doctrine.

That's the problem with judging other people's values based upon your own, which seems to be what is being condemned here. You think what you find in nature is natural, and natural is okay. I had a cat that ate half its kittens. Eat half your offspring next time you have a litter and see how that goes...>deviating especially from an accepted norm
By the Webster's definition, homosexuality is deviant behavior.<<

Prior to the church taking over and subjugating localised religious belifs claiming itself to be the only real religion, homosexuality was considered a social norm. There is historical evidence of ancient civiliasations partaking in debaucherous behaviour, including homosexuality, without fear or descrimination. All your definition proves is that you can read a dictionary.

on Nov 24, 2005
_Eh, not everyone with a pet has sex with it._
not everyone who is a homosexual is a deviant

_deviating especially from an accepted norm
By the Webster's definition, homosexuality is deviant behavior._

Prior to the church taking over and subjugating localised religious belifs claiming itself to be the only real religion, homosexuality was considered a social norm. There is historical evidence of ancient civiliasations partaking in debaucherous behaviour, including homosexuality, without fear or descrimination. All your definition proves is that you can read a dictionary. Try a history book, or simpy relax with a mind numbing novel or comic book.

_In your system of values, sure. Christian religion differentiates between the animal kingdom and humanity. You'll find animals do a lot of stuff we aren't allowed to do via Christian doctrine.That's the problem with judging other people's values based upon your own, which seems to be what is being condemned here. You think what you find in nature is natural, and natural is okay. I had a cat that ate half its kittens. Eat half your offspring next time you have a litter and see how that goes..._

you seem to be ignoring the fact that we as a race used to kill our offspring for reasons usually pertaining to survival. we were a hugely nomadic people, some of us still are, and by killing the weaker members of the tribe (the elderly and infirm, and quite often the young) allowed for a swifter get away from a foe. this still happens in the wild.

and what makes you think something that happens in nature is not natural? are you using a 'judgement based upon your own values' to negate something that occurs without the boundaries your so comfortable with? is the fact that I believe in a system that is less stringent and uses fewer utterly vestigal barriers considered unnatural thinking because it doesn't conform to the 'Christian doctrine'?

_Given it promotes what it considers to be a perfect lifestyle, and yet people are imperfect, hypocricy kind of goes with the territory, don't you think? If you find a religion that dictates we be exactly what we are, let me know. We could all be instant saints..._

from what I've garnered from various sources in relation to the Christian religion, the only way to live a gloriously happy and righteous life is to live it the way the church dictates. by not doing what the Church/bible/pastor says destroys your chance of an eternally blissful after-life. if that's not being told who you are and how you should behave, then I don't know what it is. it can't be a 'suggested' way of living, because to ignore it results in an after-life of fire and brimstone.
on Nov 24, 2005
"Prior to the church taking over and subjugating localised religious belifs claiming itself to be the only real religion, homosexuality was considered a social norm. There is historical evidence of ancient civiliasations partaking in debaucherous behaviour, including homosexuality, without fear or descrimination. All your definition proves is that you can read a dictionary. Try a history book, or simpy relax with a mind numbing novel or comic book.


Nice try, History/Lit double major here. Homosexuality hasn't been the "norm" in any culture, obviously. In some, sexual relations between people of the same gender was an accepted reality, or was winked at, but I doubt you'll find many, if any, major civilization in recorded history where open, same-sex marriages were the "norm". You will most CERTAINLY find civilizations untouched by Christianity where homosexuals were dealt with in hateful, violent ways.

If you are talking about Rome, you need to go back and read a bit more. Caligula was finally assassinated because he accused a Centurian of being homosexual. Was the Centurian poisoned by Christian doctrine? Doubtful, given when he lived and the fact that nothing resembling doctrine, much less anti-homosexuality edicts, had even been drafted yet.

It's a myth that homosexuality was openly acceptable in Rome. It was often winked at, and bisexuality was most certainly practiced by many, but if you are trying to pretend an Emperor could pick his boyfriend to marry, you're nuts. Go ask Hadrian.

I think you'll find even cultures that didn't have a problem with people of the same gender having sex, their reaction would have been far harsher to the idea of them living as a married couple and adopting kids.

"you seem to be ignoring the fact that we as a race used to kill our offspring for reasons usually pertaining to survival. we were a hugely nomadic people, some of us still are, and by killing the weaker members of the tribe (the elderly and infirm, and quite often the young) allowed for a swifter get away from a foe. this still happens in the wild."


heh, pretty much speaks for itself, there. If you want to make the point that infanticide, etc., isn't "deviant" because it happened historically, feel free, but it's a deranged idea. There is no modern deviant behavior that didn't occur in previous eras. Infanticide is most certainly deviant, as are many practices you would apparently call "natural". It's natural for a dog to hump your leg. Go try that on the gals at the mall...

Again, check the definition. If you want to take it as an insult, that's your own ignorance of the meaning of the word. I would hope most homosexuals wouldn't feel that way. Most people are deviant in some way or another, or they are really boring.

"from what I've garnered from various sources in relation to the Christian religion, the only way to live a gloriously happy and righteous life is to live it the way the church dictates. by not doing what the Church/bible/pastor says destroys your chance of an eternally blissful after-life. if that's not being told who you are and how you should behave, then I don't know what it is. it can't be a 'suggested' way of living, because to ignore it results in an after-life of fire and brimstone."


Perhaps, then, you should learn a bit about what you are trying to discuss. Christianity is based upon the idea that humans CAN'T live such a life. That was the point in that whole "death on the cross thing" you might have heard of. As Jesus himself said, "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."
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