There will always be a small fringe of Australian society opposed to an apology. People like Keith Windschuttle and Andrew Bolt ignore the inconvenient parts of history so they can write their articles and be controversial. It's a democracy and they're entitled to be dishonest. But I am satisfied with the accuracy of the heavily researched Bringing Them Home Report and am far more likely to trust it than Andrew "I think I'm a master of all trades even though I have training in none" Bolt.

I'm with you on this, and your comments about Keith and Andrew. Keith in particular is a loathsome little toad who doesn't even manipulate facts; what he manipulates is unmentionable on a blog with a general readership.

I can't say I really feel 'sorry' in the conventional sense of the word - I don't feel guilty and a sense that I should atone for the hideous things various people like me did in the past - but I do think saying sorry is a good first step, because I think it's unlikely Kevin is going to say that Australia was bitterly disappointed in the actions of our ancestors, which is how I personally feel.

Disappointed, disgusted and a little angry.

But caring about it isn't enough any more.

What this country needs is competence on aboriginal matters, and I hope Big Kev has what it takes.

If you feel the need to apologize, and it has some kind of healing properties for you, I'd never say don't do it.  However, I've never really understood the concept of feeling guilt for the crimes of someone else.

Here in The United States the same sort of national guilt is inflicted on us.  Everything from what the White Man did to the Aboriginal people of this continent to the Nisei (Japanese Americans put into camps during WWII) and slavery of the Africans.

Yes, I think all those kinds of situations bring shame to the nation's passed, but do they bring shame to each individual of the nation forever?

Both your nation and my own have brought great things in the way of freedom and human rights to the world.  If the attrocities never happened, neither would the freedoms and human rights.  Do we consider WWII a mistake?  If we do then we are just as guilty for what we would have let continue in Europe and Japan.

I don't think either of our nations are ever going to heal as long as we continue to pull the scabs off the woulds, leaving them open to fester through time.

Instead of wallowing in national shame for the passed, we should look to the present and the future.

I admit, I know little to nothing about what is happening with the Aboriginals in Australia, but I do know about the tribes here in the U.S.

Our national guilt has done nothing more than perpetuated the "White Man's Burdon".  Reservations are little more than ghettos.  But why are they?  Because, like the inner city ghettos, generation after generation of people have been taught that the U.S. government owes them a living because of the crimes of the past.   In other words, generation after generation of people are being taught that they have no responsibilities in how their lives are.  Life owes them a living.

Meanwhile many of the tribes are making billions in casino revenues that aren't going to the tribes, but to a few leaders of each tribe.   No one dares question this because it isn't the job of the tribal leaders to see that the members of their tribe are "taken care of", that is the burdon of the U.S. Department of Interior.

As long as any people are separated from the responsibilities of living, they seal their own fate.

Apologize if you feel the need,  but between the sackcloth and the ashes, think about something... did you commit any of those crimes?  What can your nation do to help remove the whole "White Man's Burdon" bullcrap from future decisions?

 

Yes, I think all those kinds of situations bring shame to the nation's passed, but do they bring shame to each individual of the nation forever?

Ted, it brings shame when there has to be an apology because of how the people are living in today's era. While some of the blame is the people at fault, (referring to how some people are here in the US, not Australia as I no nothing in details about them) how they live, how they are, etc., the blame does lie in what happened in the past. I think everyone who has ever had a moment in their lives when everything seems to go wrong and nothing ever seems to go right and getting themselves on their feet and the stuggles that comes with that, and how much of a 'handicap' some people face because they can't seem to move beyond 'that' moment, is testimony to that!

Meanwhile many of the tribes are making billions in casino revenues that aren't going to the tribes, but to a few leaders of each tribe. No one dares question this because it isn't the job of the tribal leaders to see that the members of their tribe are "taken care of", that is the burdon of the U.S. Department of Interior.As long as any people are separated from the responsibilities of living, they seal their own fate.

And how would you say this all started? The goverment started this type of situation. Instead of letting the people empower themselves or doing something that will enable them to, they give 'presents' out of guilt in an effort to make it all go away no doubt and make themselves feel better and look better, but only put a bandaid on the wounds of the past, not visualizing how this would be in the future, meaning today's society!

FS:

Total BS borderlining on racist.

I know many people from all sorts of tribes who don't live in squalor. Why? Because they chose not to. The people living in the reservations CHOOSE to live there. Yes there was a time when their ancestors were forced onto reservations, but not one person living there today has been.

Expecting handouts because of the crimes of the past is nothing more than punishing the people of today for the sins of yesterday.

Government programs that take responsibility from the individual do more to hold people down than the wild dreams of the most bigoted hatemonger.

I have no Aboriginal blood, but I consider myself lucky to include in my Australian heritage the proud history and traditions of the indigenous people of Australia.

Neither do I and I agree completely with this statement. Well said...

Expecting handouts because of the crimes of the past is nothing more than punishing the people of today for the sins of yesterday.

Like I said before,

And how would you say this all started? The goverment started this type of situation. Instead of letting the people empower themselves or doing something that will enable them to, they give 'presents' out of guilt in an effort to make it all go away no doubt and make themselves feel better and look better, but only put a bandaid on the wounds of the past, not visualizing how this would be in the future, meaning today's society!

Why shouldn't they expect something when it has been freely given and was started by the Government?

I know many people from all sorts of tribes who don't live in squalor

Where in my statement did I say anyone is living in squalor?

Total BS borderlining on racist.

Why would my statement be borderline rascist or BS? My point is that our goverment, the US government did what they did out of guilt, they didn't try to find something more useful and effective, they just put bandaid on the wounds. Then everyone cries foul just because these people are trying to empower themselves using what was given to them. Then, as you stated:

Meanwhile many of the tribes are making billions in casino revenues that aren't going to the tribes, but to a few leaders of each tribe. No one dares question this because it isn't the job of the tribal leaders to see that the members of their tribe are "taken care of", that is the burdon of the U.S. Department of Interior.

Obviosly there's no 'policing' to ensure that this doesn't happen.

Is feeling shame for the actions of others, on par with feeling shame for our own actions?

Is feeling sorry for the actions of others, the same as feeling sorry for our own actions?

Both our nations have a checkered past (and I would bet that all nations are thus condemned).  It is good that we can now see the crimes of the past for what they were, and make progress in ensuring they do not happen in the future.

And there is the issue of righting the wrongs (not wronging the wrongs).  That which was taken, where possible, should be restored.  We can hardly give back life times to those so deprived of them through either willful or ignorant polices of our ancestors or fellow countrymen.  We can correct, at the point we "woke up", the damage done.  And so we should.

And we can "regret" what happened, but to say we "are" sorry is condescending to the ones suffering from the injustices.  We can no more appologize for others than we can control them. (If we do control them, that is another issue.)

WHile I understand the contrition that you, and many here as well as your nation, want to perform, the truth is they are really empty words.  Factum non verba.  What you do to right the wrongs of others speaks more loudly than any contrition, which when examined closely, are a way to salve our perceived guilt, not ameliorate the injustices.

You should be proud of most of your history, as I am in mine.  And we should take the injustices that are a part of our history, and not celebrate them, but remember them.  And use them to ensure that such things do not happen in the future either in our land, or others. But we should not appologize for the actions of others.  We had no control over them, or of the people performing them.  We can only vow to make sure they do not happen again.

Agreed, not sure either side has it but hope both can find it. Good idea for the joint committee too, though I wonder how long it will last.

I must say Bolt the Dolt looks more a fool day by day, but anything to sell a paper I guess.

The apology is a good start, but unless concrete measures make progress addressing the issues faced by indigenous communities, in the years to come it may well come to be regarded in the same way the policies it was apologising for: "well it was well intentioned, but..."

I can't say I really feel 'sorry' in the conventional sense of the word

There is more than one conventional sense. last funeral I went to, I said sorry. But I didn't take personal responsibility. That said, this is more than just sympathy. I have taken on the Australian identity and all that goes with that history.

We have now as a nation taken the time to acknowledge what happened.

However, I've never really understood the concept of feeling guilt for the crimes of someone else.

I don't see how it's any harder to understand than taking pride in the actions of someone else?

If you feel the need to apologize, and it has some kind of healing properties for you, I'd never say don't do it.

It has profound healing effects for the living members of the Stolen Generations and their descendants. Anyone who witnessed yesterday's outpouring of emotion would have to recognise that.

I don't think either of our nations are ever going to heal as long as we continue to pull the scabs off the woulds, leaving them open to fester through time.

I don't think our nation was ever going to have a chance of healing while this crime remained something that our Government wanted to deny. The apology was the day we acknowledged what happened. We are now more hopeful of being able to move on. We have restored some trust between our peoples.

Neither do I and I agree completely with this statement. Well said...

Thanks maso.

And we can "regret" what happened, but to say we "are" sorry is condescending to the ones suffering from the injustices. We can no more appologize for others than we can control them.

It is not condescending in the slightest. Our refusal to say sorry up to now has been mean-spirited at best. This simple word has been what the Stolen Generations have asked for and wanted to hear for 10 long years. At last, they have heard it. And I echo the Prime Minister's sentiments. For the first time in 11 years I feel proud of my country again and I have hope that we can move forward as a nation. To define sorry in the way you have defined it, quite frankly is ridiculous. No one thinks I have taken personal responsibility for the actions of the past. But I am deeply sorry that my ancestors did this.

WHile I understand the contrition that you, and many here as well as your nation, want to perform, the truth is they are really empty words. Factum non verba. What you do to right the wrongs of others speaks more loudly than any contrition, which when examined closely, are a way to salve our perceived guilt, not ameliorate the injustices.

We've had a PM try to argue that for 10 years. He was never able to achieve anything on indigenous affairs, and one of the main reasons was that his lack of apology removed any trust between him and the indigenous people. Already, the new PM has announced practical measures to build on the new goodwill that was created yesterday. You cannot work with a people if you do not establish a mutual respect first. That has been sorely lacking for a decade. It was restored yesterday.

I must say Bolt the Dolt looks more a fool day by day, but anything to sell a paper I guess.

. Agreed.

That all being said, no one has ever actually been proven to have been stolen simply for being Aboriginal. Sure, they've been removed for safety; things like sexual abuse and severe neglect but don't let that spoil the Sorry Party.

And the "small fringe" you refer to appears to be at least two thirds of the Australian public.

Already, the new PM has announced practical measures to build on the new goodwill that was created yesterday.

I read Maso's article (and Rudd's comments) after writing my comment here, and I would rather have said what Cikomyr or even Maso said than the long ramble I wrote.  But you caught the nut of what I was trying to say with the line quoted above.  However, when Maso said "we must never forget the past, but we must not dwell upon it", that was the best line.

I believe Sorry still is a weak word, UNLESS it is backed up by deeds.  That is what I was trying to say with all the gibberish, and having read Rudd's comments, I think he hit a home run.

Champas:

I agree with you hear, denial of past attrocities is just as destructive as perpetuating the guilt through generations.



Because it is better to celebrate heros than grovel with criminals.

I don't understand that either unless you were in/directly responsible in some way in their success.

How can you feel proud when you did nothing to make the pride-creating event happen?

You can read Bruce Trevorrow's sad story here: WWW Link

QED