A champagne socialist reflects on Western culture and the Universe... and whilst gazing at his navel, he comes up with a lot of useless lint. It is the fruits of this navel-gazing that form the substance of this blog.
This is one of these articles where I’m actually going to be upfront and honest about what I believe, rather than hiding behind my left wing shock jock alter-ego.

I have just finished watching the BBC docco “My Foetus”, which showed an abortion being carried out. It was certainly confronting, which I found surprising because although I am pro-choice it is not an issue I have ever been passionate about. In fact I’ve always felt a fair amount of sympathy for the pro-life case too. Perhaps part of the reason it confronted me was that as a vego who believes that humans undervalue animal life and don’t give animals enough credit, I could see where the pro-lifers were coming from in calling this murder. I believe that humans are incredibly good at ignoring certain things about animals and taking notice of other things about them in order to create a misleading scientific discourse about their intelligence and their worth. How do I know the same is not being done in the case of foetuses?

One pro-choice argument given in the docco was concern for the baby who was going to be born into a situation where it was not wanted. No one wants to see a situation where a person is resented by its mother and ends up being abused and disregarded as a result. But this happens all the time anyway. And no one but me has yet floated the argument that people should have to have a licence to procreate. So how strong is this argument for the pro-choicers? But then, just because it happens all the time doesn’t mean we should encourage this horrible situation. Children who grow up without love from their family often end up angry adults who seek to take revenge upon society by becoming politicians, and we have enough politicians around. Who would really complain if John Howard had have been aborted? Seriously, surely, we should avoid instances where children are unwanted by their families.

There was the confronting images of aborted foetuses that I think should be shown. They sickened me, but then I had felt woozy only half an hour beforehand when I had a blood nose. I hate that red liquid and it always makes me feel nauseous. That doesn’t make my blood nose immoral. And although I have a rather pronounced fear of blood, I think most people have some problem with the sight of blood. Is this not partially why we are all confronted by these images?

I have previously argued that a foetus in its early stages is simply an extension of the mother, incapable of surviving on its own. But where does that line get drawn? If a baby were born but had not yet had its umbillical cord cut, I would not be in favour of it being clubbed to death simply because the mother did not want the baby. But then, a baby that has been born is capable of survival without the umbillical cord. It is not really an extension of the mother anymore, so much as a human awaiting independence and survival.

I remember once hearing of a foetus which survived its abortion and grew into a healthy adult. But then this was on the cover of a women’s tabloid magazine and I didn’t read the article. Assuming we believe that this was even a true story, presumably someone looked after the foetus and provided it sustenance. But it does highlight something about my initial argument. What do I mean by “an extension of the mother, incapable of surviving on its own”? How many two-month-old babies do I know capable of survival entirely on their own? Then again, maybe some are capable of survival on their own. I don’t believe in the Adam and Eve story so surely there must have been a bub who raised itself into a functioning caveperson at some point. Even if one does believe in the Adam and Eve story, I’m pretty sure I have heard of a handful of “amazing tales of survival” where babies who have been left to fend for themselves have somehow survived. What is more, early term foetusses are undoubtedly incapable of survival on their own. Even late term aborted foetusses probably are, so perhaps my initial reaction was valid.

I also certainly don’t believe in the “every sperm is sacred” belief. There are so many cells of different types in the universe, sperms and eggs are nothing that special. After all, should teenagers who have wet dreams feel guilty? Should we feel remorse for all the sperm cells that don’t manage to swim all the way to the egg, whilst only one triumphs? When do a sperm cell and an egg become important? I suppose a simple answer would be the moment when they actually join together. But that doesn’t seem straightforward to me. After all, I don’t think the pro-lifers in the docco would have had much impact on anyone if they were showing pictures of aborted sperm cells that had just joined with eggs (assuming someone was willing to have an abortion performed whilst they smoked a pre-coital cigarette. What is more, drawing the line at this point would mean being opposed to the morning after pill as well, and I don’t see any valid distinction between the night before and the morning after pills). I gathered from the docco there seems to be a scientific distinction made between a foetus and an embryo, though the docco didn’t explore this. I doubt knowledge of such black-and-white distinctions would be convincing enough to push me one way or the other anyway, but I guess I’m intrigued.

In essence I think one of the main problems with the debate is what is so often the problem in emotive public debates. No one is precise about their message. The pro-lifers rely on images of foetusses that “look like babies” as though appearance of arms and legs is the most concerning thing. The pro-choicers rely on emotive stories about young mothers who simply can’t afford to have babies for various reasons.

No one ever really clarifies what it is about “life” that makes it so horrible for us to end it. Death happens all the time, and yes we usually feel awful about it, but that doesn’t remove its unavoidablity. Many people don’t feel as much problem about the death of an old person, as though their life is somehow unimportant and invalid. How often have you heard people say it was better that their grandparent died when they did, (and yet still these people are opposed to euthanasia)? In the case of accidental deaths of old people, people say things like “they would have died fairly soon anyway”. Is it as simple as some mathematical equation where we simply work out how many years of life each person is entitled to? Other people might feel less problem with the death of a baby or a foetus because it has not yet gained enough intelligence or life experience to be important.

So again, we are not precise about what we mean by “life”. People who take an “abortion is murder” stance are fairly clear about their opinion that a foetus is a living being, but I have already identified problems with this argument. Not insurmountable problems, just problems that show that this isn’t black and white for everyone. Sperm cells are living, as are plants, but few religions are opposed to the death of either.

I heard that the Jews believed that a baby gains its soul upon the moment of taking in its first breath. Pro-life Catholics don’t agree with this, but I’m not sure when it is they think the soul enters the body? Does it even enter the body? What is this mystical procedure whereby a sperm cell and an egg acquire a soul? Is the soul created and constructed for this baby? Does it grow along with the foetus from some semi-formed incarnation into a spiritual force, or does it simply appear fully-formed at some undetermined point in the pregnancy? Does the soul have characteristics of the parents’ souls?

I ask these questions in all seriousness because I do believe in a soul, but I don’t believe it’s quite the independent entity that it usually gets talked about by the major religions. Which is not to say that I’m right, I just don’t believe that.

And this is what I mean by saying we don’t specify what we mean by “life”. Is it the loss of a soul that we are concerned about? Can a soul really disappear? What happens to a soul when a person dies?, and if the answer is they go to paradise, I find it hard to get all that upset.

Presumably there are atheistic pro-lifers, but why? Why do they believe in the sanctity of life? When do they believe life starts? Equally, when do pro-choice atheists believe life starts?

People often grieve over miscarriages and abortions, but it doesn’t seem to weigh on their minds in quite the same way the death of a teenager in a car accident weighs on a parent or a friend. The parent will not have developed the same connection with that foetus because they have not yet had as many conversations or interactions as they might have had with a teenager. But many parents who don’t get along with their teenage offspring still manage to find remorse at their death.

Equally, people seem to be able to grieve for lost siblings they never knew. But what are they grieving over? The loss of conversations? The loss of life generally? Do they have some mystical connection to that person even though they never knew them?

Can one really have a connection with a foetus that has not yet said a word? If yes, then can one feel a connection to a sperm cell or even a sperm cell that has just joined with an egg only moments previously? Is this connection the important factor? If not, what is?

The more deeply you look into the issue the more you realise that each side must be deeply divided. There are probably Atheists and Christians and Jews and Moslems on both sides and they would all have different reasons for being on their side. This makes it difficult when some people believe in choice for one reason, but then someone else who believes in pro-choice doesn’t agree that your argument or reasons are valid.

My own religious beliefs about souls simply being created from the existing spiritual energy of the Universe, and then dispersing itself through the Universe upon death provides no real guidance. It’s a belief that allows (but doesn’t obligate) one to become more at ease with death. Life becomes simply one state for energy to be in and death does not represent the death of that energy (soul), simply its dispersal. Yet I am a vego so I obviously have a problem with death and killing.

There doesn’t seem to be anything black and white here. An in-depth discussion raises more questions than it answers. No one can really agree on what life is, what souls are, what is so important about them. And rarely does anyone come up with an explanation of these things that seems adequate to the opposition, certainly not adequate enough to convince them to change their mind. So I’m probably in a similar position to the documentary-maker. I am uneasy about abortion. But I’m not against it. I find it hard to tell anyone that they should conform to my beliefs about life and death and their sanctity or otherwise. So that leaves me not forcing pro-choicers to become pro-lifers or forcing pro-lifers to consider abortion. In the end I feel people have to make up their own minds, and that means I guess that I am pro-choice. Actually I think it’s more accurate to say I am ambivalent and confused and undecided. I’m not pro or anti anything because I don’t take an active stance on this. I hope I am never confronted with a situation where I have to make up my mind about it. I would certainly vote against any law that forced people to take the view that abortion is murder.

However, I feel it important to say that I find almost no doubt that abortion should be okay in the case of a woman having been raped. Of course, if this were the only available legal reason for having an abortion, women who wanted an abortion would in some cases falsely claim to have been raped, and I don’t think it would be our place to question such a claim. Rape is traumatic enough without putting a person through intensive questioning to determine their honesty. Once one crime has been committed, it is unfair to treat the victim as a criminal. Although, if rape were the only legal reason, I don’t think as many women would have abortions. I think many of them would give more thought to the potential future life of the baby. Many would also feel oppressed and forced into a situation they didn’t deserve to be in. Their children would feel equally alienated. And for men to stand on high preaching this sort of argument is hypocritical. Many men flee the coop in cases of unwanted pregnancies (eg. anti-abortionist Health Minister Tony Abbott), and they never really have to carry the burden of pregnancy. Nor can they ever truly understand the connection a woman feels with the foetus. Though let’s not forget that that foetus has been formed out of a man’s sperm cell too and is thus part of the bloke too. But yes any woman who has been forced to go through rape should not have to carry a baby when they have not even made a choice to have sexual intercourse (yes I realise that sentence was tautologist but it was for rhetorical effect). They should not be forced to keep a reminder around of such a traumatic and horrific experience. They should have the option to gain a child out of it if they want, but not be forced.

Wow! 2200 words just to say I’m ambivalent! Imagine if I actually had an opinion!


Comments
on Aug 08, 2004
I actually agree with this article almost completely. This is a rare thing, write down the date and take a picture. Even though I am pro-choice, like you, I am uneasy about it, though probably not for exactly the same reasons. To explain my reasons I would have to write 2200 word essay too.
I don't feel uneasy about REALLY early abortions (from a round bundle of cells to fishy looking thing) it's that later term ones that where there is decidedly grey area. I suppose the important thing for me is whether or not they have brain function. From that point on it get a bit hairy as to when it can be aware of its environment. I don't think people should be fooled by the fact the some aborted foetuses look human, I feel it is what is going on in ther heads that's important, but as i said, it is hard to know exactly when awareness happens. It almost certainly happens on a gradient and there is no on/off threshold. It's sort of like the various states of awareness you have when you're waking up or falling asleep.

One quibble I have with the article, at no point did a human child have to raise itself form birth. This is a chicken and the egg arguement - before the chicken and the egg there was a protochicken and egg. Of course the rooster came first:)
If you go back in human evolutionary history we had an ancestor that wasn't human and that wasn't dependant on its parents. This was probably quite a few species ago as even monkey babies are dependant on their parents, though not for quite as long.
on Aug 08, 2004
Toblerone I think you should get a blog on JU you and Tegan's anonymous user known as misanthropic male. I think you'd both have a lot of interesting things to say.

Champas I gave you an insightful for this but didn't comment before - as I said in your other article I liked it - it was honest - I'm still not even sure where I stand anymore -- and there IS at least one person in the world who survived an abortiion - it was a woman I think her name was Gena or something Glike - My ... oh IFC teacher had her autobigraphy but I can't remember her name right now
on Aug 08, 2004
Yes, toblerone...even if you're not going to blog much yourself, we'd appreciate having you around as a regular blogger.

I, too, would like to see our "better" anonymous bloggers sign up.
on Aug 08, 2004
Toblerone I would photo this but then you found something to disagree on. You forget I'm not as easily convinced by the argument that we "evolved" from primates as you are. I realised I was treading the chicken and the egg story and I have to say you're the first person I've ever heard claim to have a definitive answer to that question. (I don't think it's relevant to this debate but my personal belief about the chicken and egg thing is that it highlights a problem with linear models of time). I'm not utterly sure that no child has raised itself from birth, I'm almost certian someone mentioned something about it. I know there have been children raised by animals of other species. Wasn't there a famous psychological case where a human child had effectively raised itself in the wild and then had problems acquiring language? Anyway, I don't think I answered any questions on this in my article, I just raised them. It's a grey area. Perhaps it's not that important either, or perhaps it is, but it's worth pondering. But not til after the election. I would be very interested to see a blog from Tobler and one from misanthropic. How interesting it would be to see if they differ on anything or whether they agree. I think they could have fantastic debates with each other ;>
on Aug 08, 2004
i think toblerone and misanthropic should definitely combine forces and launch a JU blog. mainly so i can hurl abuse at *them* on their home turf rather than them dirtying MY blog with their muddy footsteps all the time. i'm sure the two of you could find plenty of stuff to talk about.

champas, i enjoyed the article -- i read it properly too, didn't just glance at it, think "geez this is long" and skim down, reading only the last paragraph (though i shudder to think of any situation in which you actually have an opinion). i think this issue is a tricky one where there are a lot of pat answers given and not enough thought. one thing i do think though is that if the mother's life is in danger from the pregnancy (eg an ectopic pregnancy) then she should not feel guilty about having an abortion. one life being saved is inarguably better than losing both mother and child.
on Aug 10, 2004
This triangular block of chocolate works ALONE thankyou very much! I have to time for misanthropists. Humanity is a wonderful thing;)
I never hurl abuse, only little people, and quite frankly those little freaks are begging for it.
Okay, okay point taken, I'll get a freaking blog...eventually. Are you happy, are you happy now! Actually I already have one but I'd like to start over with it as it's a bit crap.
(At this point Rumpulstiltskin is swallowed up by the fires of hell and Teegstar no longer has to give up her firstborn child.)
on Aug 10, 2004
I agree that people should have a license to procreate, because as a psychologist I would rather find another job, it it were possible to prevent the kinds of suffering and long-lived psychoses inflicted on people by their parents.

You might be interested to know that at 20 weeks, a foetus has fully formed hearing functions, and at 22 weeks they can express emotion, ie scowling when the mother scowls, and smiling when she smiles. So they can hear what people say and how they say it, which is scary because scientists have found that what they hear then has a long term impact. There is a documentary that shows the foetus, during an abortion, trying to get away from the instrument (forget what it's called), it's like it has a survival instinct and somehow knows what is happening to an extent. They are more complex than people like to believe, and many doctors make too much money off of frightened women to tell them otherwise.

As for the baby going to paradise, I believe that is so, but the total harm isn't to the baby; abortion impacts on the mother. In fact, a large number of people who have abortions who go on to have children suffer from post-natal depression, because they haven't worked through their emotions regarding the abortion. When they actually birth a child, they are confronted with anxiety about what they have done. Seeing the end result of their pregnancy confronts them with a lot of questions, and the process required for recovery is similar to the grieving process when a loved one dies.

There's one more thing I want to add to this. There are people who desperately want children but can't have their own, and have been on waiting lists for up to (and beyond) three years waiting to adopt. How about waiting out that nine months and giving the baby to someone who wants it? The unwanted baby might mean the world to someone else.
on Aug 13, 2004
I think your dissertation was quite interesting. I also saw that program but it had no effect on my original opionion/stance on the 'issue'. (I also wondered at the time that if people were shown pictures of various medical operations of any type if their reaction would be the same...the usual reaction to lots of lood etc). On the issue itslef, I don't think many women find the decision to have an abortion an easy one to make...a few might, but there is plenty of evidence from women who have had abortions that the decision to go ahead was not taken lightly at all. I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose (to have an abortion or not). I firmly believe no one person should have the right to tell another what to do in such cases and so can never agree with the pro-lifers (as they like to call themselves...even though there are a number of instances when they show they are not actually "pro-life" (eg killing doctors who perform abortions). I don't really beleive the so-called pro-lifers are really pro-life. I think they really perpetuate the idea of 'woman' being the (evil) Eve of the Garden of Eden myth. There are many reasons why a woman may have an abortion nad societies attitudes to them if they become pregnant is only one of them
on Aug 13, 2004
At last - someone prepared to offer an alternative to fence-sitting, and a rational, well-argued one at that. Good for you, Kat. And yes, I share your view and I have no problem saying so.

1) Kat, your comment about people being affected by watching medical procedures is spot on. People should not let squeamishness interrupt their higher critical functions. How many times have you heard people say things like 'I could never be a surgeon'? Still they go on having hip replacements and tummy-tucks just the same. I find the idea of jumping out of an aeroplane terrifying, but I don't stand outside my local skydiving club on weekday mornings with a placard suggesting that parachutists should be locked up.

2) I was rather bothered by Champas' comments questioning the degree and validity of grief felt for aborted foetuses in comparison to grief for other reasons. Who are we to say which grief is valid and which isn't, and which is the more serious? That said, the concept of a woman's right to choose is exactly that - not the right to have an abortion, but the right to CHOOSE between having an abortion and having a child. And whichever way that decision goes, it is rarely taken lightly or accepted easily. Generally, I think it would be fair to say that women would greatly prefer not to be in the position of having to make such a decision in the first place.

3) Groans all round probably, but I have to say that there is a major political element to this issue that ought to be made clear. 'Pro-life' is such a misleading label, as Kat points out. Pro-life, anti-abortion, anti-choice - call it what you will, by and large this is a political position, and is more often than not found hand in glove with a particularly unsympathetic and right-wing line in respect of the mothers of young children. And if these mothers are unmarried and / or of low socio-economic status, well so much the worse for them. Often they are judged to have 'brought it upon themselves' (with no male 'assistance'?) ... and this is, of course, where Kat's point about the biblical 'stain' is relevant, as it cannot have escaped anyone's notice that Christianity appears to be the motivation behind a significant proportion of Pro-life organisations. Pro-lifers profess to care desperately for the welfare of foetuses - even if this is often at the expense of the welfare of their prospective mothers, of course. However, if - for whatever reasons - foetuses eventually emerge as babies within our society, who looks after their welfare then? Who ensures that they have a rich and varied education, and that their mothers have sufficient economic, medical and social support to raise them as healthy and happy participants in our society? Not the Pro-lifers - by and large, they are conspicuous by their absence. And this, to me, is the greatest irony: that Pro-lifers should fight tirelessly for the right to life of a clump of cells in respect of which the very presence of 'life' is hotly disputed, but that should that clump of cells develop into an independently functioning, indisputably LIVING organism, it is suddenly no longer anything to do with them.
on Aug 16, 2004
Don't really have a problem with the idea of abortion....all the blood and gore of that doco not withstanding. (After all, how many would be equally turned off any operation if they saw how their arteries were clamped, how much blood they lost, their skin getting cut etc etc) But from a so-called moral perspective, there are a number of imperatives as to why a woman may decide to go ahead and have an abortion. How often do you see the other half of the foetus creator taking responsibility for what has been created (thus leaving the female to deal with the siutation alone)? How much support do you hear of from the other foetus-creator throughout the growing period? How often has society condemned the unmarried female for being pregnant but conveniently forgotten that there was a male also involved in this act and applauded (if anything) his part. How often have unmarried women been thrown out of home by parents beucase they got pregnant. How often has 'shame' been the thing thrown at the unmarried woman who has got pregnant. How often have unmarried women been sent interstate to bear all that's involved in dealing with a pregnancy/having and often raising a child alone? Until society is able to deal more equally and supportively with the unmarried woman who is pregnant, there will be strong pressures for these women to decide to have an abortion. Knowing that large numbers of such women have chosen to abort because of the total lack of support and the aggro which has rained down on them - and many have died as a result of backyard and even legally performed abortions - there will always be a quite understandable case for abortion. As for those who purport to be "pro-life", I think they are really just scumbags, people determined to punish such women for their "transgression". After all, they seem to have no problems with killing doctors and others who take a more humanitarian view and perform abortions.
on Aug 16, 2004
Furry, re 2) it's a good point you raise, but I don't think it contradicts the point I was making. If one believes abortion is okay, then one must believe there is a difference between a foetus and a teenager that makes it okay to "kill" one and not the other. I was pondering what that difference was. I agree with you that women AND MEN who have aboritions often go through horrific grief (I mean look, I watched those 2 episodes of Secret Life of Us, I'm well informed here). But to give you some context I had just watched 60 Minutes on the same night and a mother of a teenager who died in a car crash was on bawling her eyes out years later and described how this had virtually brought her life to a standstill. In my observations, abortions have a different, though equally valid effect.
Re 1) I said it first and I wish everyonehere would stop nicking my ideas. That's the problem with you left wingers. No original thought whatsoever.

Chrissy, yes I know there have been some bad and violent anti-choice people, but I was truying to remove that side of things from the article. Furry points out I am reluctant to express an opinion. Many people have gone on joeuser and expressed opinions on abortion very vehemently. Theres no shortage of opinions. What there is a shortage of is a debate about the grey areas. Nobody ever addresses the problems with their own arguments. They just go in for hell for leather without ever really considering what it means to be in favour of one side or the other and expect everyone else to jump on their bandwagon no questions asked. Unfortunately, most people do jump on and so we end up with an inane debate based on unsubstantiated opinions. What I'm trying to say is, ignore the fact that some people present their message the wrong way. Ignore the fact they migt also happen to believe in Jesus Christ as a Saviour or that the dole should be abolished. It is possible to agree with some things and disagree with other views that are expressed by one side of politics. Sit down and think about some of these questions I've raised about this issue and ponder how they affect your beliefs. Maybe they will maybe they wont. I came out still in favour of abortion after all the questioning, but I was moved to consider some hard questions about why.
Few people have come here and actually addressed the problems with their own arguments that I have raised. So it's back to the same old debate.
on Aug 16, 2004
Furry points out I am reluctant to express an opinion


Not quite fair, Champas - I was having a wee dig at a number of the preceding contributions, not singling you out. (And you did proclaim your lack of opinion yourself at the end of your original article.) Also, I apologise if you feel I stole anything from you in my 1st comment - if so, it was unintentional. I agree with much of the rest of your argument, particularly in respect of people being reluctant to address the grey areas.

I'm going to be contentious here, but I don't really think that personal faith has much of a role to play in this issue, inasmuch as we are talking about a legal position. Of course, we must all be guided by our own beliefs in respect of the choices we make. However, we live in a pluralist society, and there will never be a legal position that satisfies all people.

What I do take issue with - you knew I'd find something, surely! - is your argument 'And no one but me has yet floated the argument that people should have to have a licence to procreate.' Well, yes they have. In the late 1970s, Sir Keith Joseph - a key member of Margaret Thatcher's Tory government in the UK - proposed this very viewpoint. Actually, he took it just a little further, arguing that people identified as belonging to the lowest two social classes should be automatically disqualified from possessing such licences. I'm proud to have participated in student union action in response to these comments (among others) which successfully prevented Sir Keith from speaking at Manchester University.

Crypto-Fascist Sir Keith aside, I have huge problems with the licencing approach. To me, it is the top of the slippery slope which goes all the way down to a Politbureau which decides who can vote, who can breed, who can eat, and who should take a 5 year holiday in Siberia. But the problem goes way beyond what may be - when all is said and done - just my political conviction. The overriding problem here is this - who qualifies to make the judgement on licensing? Should a government be permitted to cut welfare payments to low income earners with one hand, and to remove their right to procreate with the other? ie. Who will watch the watchmen?
on Aug 16, 2004
People have proposed that for real? Wow I was just modifying/stealing an old Sir Humphrey joke. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I mean yeah a lot of people who procreate shouldn't, but who's to make that judgment? There are a lot of things about poor people's values that I prefer to rich people's and vice versa. Everyone has something to contribute and if we could all get over dismissing each other's viewpoints just because we disagree with something else that person has said, the world would be in a much better state. But I digress.
I make no denial that I lacked an opinion. I questioned your assertion it was a problem, but I hadn't realised you were only meant to be having a dig at the Christian Right wingers who've posted so far, so that's cool.
I agree personal faith can't have too much bearing on the legality, and yet at some point it has to. There are societies who have believed that killing another human for the purpose of survival (ie eating) is perfectly acceptable. Our society does not allow this at all. Isn't that a question of faith? To decide questions about what is acceptable killing, do we not have to determine what is valid life? And then you have to make up your mind how this is determined. For me, the brain function is a totally unsatisfactory way to judge this, yet it would be suggested by hedonist Toblerone as a faithless marker of life/no life. I dont think my ideas about souls can be incorporated into law, but where does that line get drawn? As for emotion, raised by melinda, it's an interesting point, but I think it;s worth noting that the baby only copies what the mother did and is arguably not expressing its own feelings yet, but simply being an extension of the mother. But then, does chopping the umbilical cord stop that from being the case anyway? We're still made up of those cells and DNA from our folks.
And even if one is in favour of choice from a legal perspective, which I am, that doesn't mean one has to be in favour of choice for oneself if placed into that situation. For someone who doesn't have a problem with this abortion idea after having contemplated the questions I outlined, I have no problem with the law allowing them to abort. Well not no problem, but I'll let it be. But that doesn't mean I would abort a child if I could carry one. I'm unsure what it would mean to do so. So what is valid life Furry?
on Aug 16, 2004
It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Apologies Champas - I hadn't realised you were being facetious. (Climbs down off high horse.) Yes, Sir Keith was a very scary character. Even standing next to Maggie, who was pretty frightening on her own.

are societies who have believed that killing another human for the purpose of survival (ie eating) is perfectly acceptable. Our society does not allow this at all. Isn't that a question of faith?

What follows may at first glance appear to be mere semantics, but please bear with me ...
I do not believe in a higher being / a soul / life after death / rebirth after death. I do not even believe in astrology / palmistry / reading tea-leaves. I guess that makes me faithless, unless you want to include a decidely wobbly and intermittent faith in the human race to produce someone rather admirable every now and again. Should that penalise or disqualify me from participating in the debate about the legal status of abortion? (Rhetorical!)
I would suggest that it's not faith that is important in respect of this law, but ETHICS. One's ethics may derive from any of a vast variety of sources INCLUDING faith or religious affiliation - but I would suggest that these are not the only sources. For all my 'lack' of faith, I have a well-established sense of my own ethical position on this issue, which is informed by several spheres of understanding - among them science, technology, philosophy, sociology and religion. (Yes, religion - even though I have no faith of my own, I am still quite capable of assessing and appreciating the views of the various religious organisations.) So, this way, everyone is able to participate in the evaluation process. Make sense?

But then, does chopping the umbilical cord stop that from being the case anyway?

Hmm, I really don't think the umbilical argument cuts it (hehe), There are too many exceptions; eg. conjoined twins - one 'life' or two? Dependence is a continuum that exists both in utero and post natal - I don't see the surgeon as spontaneously generating a life upon cutting the cord.

We're still made up of those cells and DNA from our folks.

Yes, but our folks didn't originate them either. For some reason, this reminds me of the old joke that the chicken is just the egg's way of making more eggs. Richard Dawkins adapted this beautifully in 'The Selfish Gene' when he said (and I paraphrase, because I can't be *rsed looking it up at this time of night) that the organism - be it amoeba, cockroach or human - is just the gene's way of making more genes. Now THAT I can believe in!
And it's goodnight from him.