A champagne socialist reflects on Western culture and the Universe... and whilst gazing at his navel, he comes up with a lot of useless lint. It is the fruits of this navel-gazing that form the substance of this blog.
;> Dr, I've got whiplash
Published on April 21, 2005 By Champas Socialist In Politics
I grew up a very proud Australian. I learned Aussie slang terms that are becoming obsolete, I deliberately developed a broad Aussie accent and I became one of the very few who knows the 2nd verse to the national anthem.

I grew up under the Hawke-Keating Government. Although I’m old enough now to recognise the emptiness of some of their words, it was largely their example that made me proud. They spoke of reconciling our differences, of breaking down the barriers and tensions that exist between Aboriginal people and Australia’s more recent arrivals. We acknowledged the special history and culture of the most ancient surviving culture in the world. We also acknowledged that the land of Australia was not our ancestors’ to take for us and so we gave native title rights to those who should have inherited the land from their parents and grandparents. It wasn’t just that Hawke and Keating said all this, but that they regularly reinforced these messages as an important part of what it means to be an Australian. It was something we were proud of and it was something that was reinforced to me as a child. This was the example I wanted to follow.

Hawke and Keating also spoke of learning to value the knowledge offered to us by our people’s diverse backgrounds. They spoke of celebrating the many different cultural practices that exist in Australia.

I learned from this example. It made me proud to be an Australian. To me, being an Australian meant trying to put a few past mistakes right. It meant abandoning the mistake of the White Australia Policy and openly embracing a multicultural future. It meant celebrating our differences as something that makes us unique and interesting.

Unlike many other countries who force their citizens to adhere to specific cultural and religious practices, we valued our right to be different from each other. Unlike other countries who engage in a monoculture, we were a shining example to the world of how people of differing backgrounds could love living together.

Australia has a culture of its own. We aren’t dull, and we aren’t brash. We are an honest, fair-minded, hard-working people. That’s what we have in common. But within the geographical boundaries of this island, there is room not just for the cities, but also for Aboriginal camps and villages who adhere to a more communal lifestyle than the Anglo inhabitants. There is room not just for farming communities, but for foreign language speaking immigrants to speak a variety of languages. There is room for people of varying religions to practise and there is room for Chinatowns, where I love going. There is room for us all to learn about each other’s cultures and languages.

And that’s what I love about multicultural Australia. I love having friends who are Muslims, Trinidadian, Aboriginal, Italian etc. I love finding out about the special things they know because of their backgrounds, that I could never learn otherwise. I love walking the streets and hearing all sorts of interesting sounding languages. I love practising French when I meet French immigrants.

And that’s AustraliA. Australia IS Multicultural.If you don’t love it, LEAVE!



That includes you, John Howard!

Comments (Page 3)
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on Apr 25, 2005
'Come on, this is NOT rocket science:
If your saying that we should not have to learn the Indian language to recieve proper health care then it stands to reason that they need to speak english for us to recieve proper health care. As a side note I notice that you "ignored" th last part of my post.'

1. I was simply pointing out that LW asked me to defend a statement that I never made, nothing more. However, since you bring this up again, it certainly does NOT 'stand to reason' that doctors all need to speak English. (Who exactly is this 'us' you refer to?) Try this: Those citizens who speak English as a first language may go to English-speaking doctors. Those with other first languages may go to doctors who speak these other languages.

2. Yes, I ignored (why the quotes?) the last part of your post, drmiler. As far as I can see, it cites an administrative requirement for those seeking U.S. citizenship to have 'an ability to read, write, and speak English'. I don’t see how our discussion of what is desirable should be affected by the minutiae of the current legislation - what is currently required. Nor do I see how your quoting it changes anything. Rules have been changed for being ‘wrong’ in the past, and I suspect they will be in the future too.
on Apr 25, 2005
*crickets chirping....silence* *scratches his head,looking around* "Hey, where's dabe?"
on Apr 25, 2005
*crickets chirping....silence* *scratches his head,looking around* "Hey, where's dabe?" "Its awefully quiet here."
on Apr 25, 2005
No LW, I didn't overlook your previous response. I found it racist and offensive, I still do, and I'm not responding to it.
As for the rest of your post, that reads to me like a problem with the health system in general in the 'good old USA' (not the subject of Champas' original post at all, incidentally, but I guess I may be as guilty of allowing it to meander off track as anyone else; sorry Champas), and not specifically a language issue at all.
on Apr 25, 2005
You tactics are showing, LW. Tedious is right when you fail repeatedly to read what I've written.

Once again, you attribute to me an opinion that I NEVER professed, and then attack me for it.

I never subscribed to:
'If you think it's racist to insist on having a doctor who speaks the same language as you do'

I actually proposed:
'Those citizens who speak English as a first language may go to English-speaking doctors. Those with other first languages may go to doctors who speak these other languages.'

Which seems to satisfy the very thing you SAY you're complaining about. But don't you let the facts get in the way of a good vitriolic froth at the mouth, will you?
on Apr 25, 2005
And let's face it Dabe, even if you DID garden professionally, how does that make your contributions to this (or any other) debate less valid? The way I see it, ED's comments must derive from one of two possible motives:

1. He can develop no counter-argument to your position other than to insult you personally; or
2. He equates validity of opinion with some misguided notion of professional status; ie. he's a snob.

Either way, it's pretty pathetic.


Dabe's contributions consist of comments on par with the trolls on Yahoo message boards, regurgitation of DU posts, and references to masonic-like neocon death cult. It's kind of hard to counter non-arguments.

Neither of you, however, have addressed my point. Internal diversity multiplied infinitely eliminates diversity. If you want good Pakistani food, would you choose to patronize the Pakistani restaurant? Or would you go to Babu Bhatt's Chinese/Mexican/Greek/Arabic/Italian/German/Pakistani/American/and Thai cafe?

The modern multiculturalism movement advocates diversity without unity. History shows that discord soon follows. Growing up, my neighborhood was populated by the descendents of people from all over Europe, from Mexico, from Puerto Rico, from the Phillipines. The man who ran the corner grocer was the son of a family from Saudi Arabia. We all thought of ourselves as Americans. It was a safe and clean neighborhood, fit to raise a family. Then according to the Commissars, the neighborhood "diversified" and became 75% Mexican and Guatemalan immigrants. Many openly admitted they were illegals. The remaining 25% were old folks who lived in the neighborhood their entire lives and prefered to go down with the ship. The neighborhood went from having 1 homicide in 1988 to having 45 in 2003. "Diveristy" brought a dramatic increase in burglaries, gang activity, armed robberies, and shootings. Schools were overflowing, the parks and playgrounds were paved over and new schools were built on them. Trees were cut down (for some reason the Mexican aliens have a problem with trees - they would cut out a strip of bark and kill the trees and then have the city send crews to cut them down). Loud parties, drinking, and parties all night long. It's very enriching seeing a fourteen year old blond girl walking to school listening to 30 and 40 year old men yelling "Chupa me, güera," - trust me. I saw more flags on September 16th than on July 4th.

"Diversity" means importing non-whites and telling them they are great and whitey is evil. There's no diversity credit from the Commissars when European immigrants enter. They're not "diverse" enough.
on Apr 26, 2005
I’ve never deleted a comment on my forum before, but there has been so much horrible, lowbrow insult-throwing that I felt a need to clean it up a bit. I have left some of it because it is unfortunately contained in the same post as some sort of an argument (and because there seems to be a limit on how many you can delete). I have also deleted as much off-topic stuff as possible. I suppose at least you didn’t turn this into another communism Vs capitalism debate.

A lot of people have been complaining about having their arguments ignored. Ironically, these are the same people who have ignored large chunks of my last post in favour of going off-topic or insulting someone.

Dr Guy, I just had a check back on what I’d written and I can’t see where I slammed LW. She provided some stats. I retorted with some stats which I actually sourced. That’s debate. I suggested to her that French people would be p***ed off at her if she said the French were like the Poms (actually how has that gone down with your hubby lW? Actually, let’s not get into that).

Just because dabe may write an aggressive and rude blog, does not mean that everything he writes is rude and aggressive. Up til this blog LW has always managed to control herself nicely on my blog, despite the diatribes that appear in her own lair.

What is anti-American about…

“I don't want you to think that all Americans are as blatantly racist”
“At present, we're not doing so well, either. Steered and segregated housing and schools, and aversion to languages other than English come to mind.”

? Or did I miss the un-American bit?

Dabe has a right to criticise his Government. That’s not a reflection on his country. He disagrees with Bush’s agenda. But he is quite clearly proud of his country’s diversity and of the people who value it. He thinks America could do some things better. That is not unpatriotic. There are many things I’m sure you’d like to see improved too.

“Yes, and they fought bloody wars with each other”

I normally fight with people I can speak with, not the other way around, but I suppose it’s a possible theory on why there were so many wars. I just don’t agree with it. I think dabe offers a better theory (in amongst a disappointingly abusive post).

“The first step towards contrasting cultures living peacefully together, CS, is Diplomacy..”

As I said regarding Iraq. We agree.

“these mysterious 'many europeans'”

I’ve spent a fair portion of my life in Europe and found that they laugh when you say how impressive it is that people can speak English (a comment I made based on reputation). They then prove to you why it ain’t so impressive. However, their grasp of continental languages is. I guess we have different experience of Europe.

“would it be ok for me to state that "Niggers breed like rabbits?"

Possibly not. I won’t get bogged down in the minutiae of this point though. It was a passing comment, it wasn’t meant as a bad reflection on us. Sorry if I offended you.

“I wasn't aware that you had lost that right, but if you have, then by all means I support your efforts to "reclaim" it.”

Thankyou. It’s not legally lost or anything, I just have found that something we used to be very vocal about has been shrouded in silence, while the racists are more and more vocal. And I’m sick of it. Sick to bloody death of it.

“sometimes it's hard to find doctors,”

Ok firstly, we’re supposed to be talking about Australia, and this is not a problem here. I’d suggest your grievance therefore should be with your medical system, not immigrants, but that debate is for another time. Even if it were a problem here, let’s just imagine then that these immigrants instead don’t go into medicine. Is your problem solved?

However, I think I would agree with you that in circumstances such as emergency sections of hospitals that an English fluency requirement is acceptable. However, I see no problem with a Chinese doctor out in the bush, in a largely Chinese community (this is an actual A Current Affair example) who can’t speak English. If he chooses to limit his clientele, that’s his choice. Even in the city, that’s his choice. Just keep away from the emergency room. Fair?

“When I insist on being able to communicate freely and be understood by any medical doctor practicing here in the US, I get accused of:
Imposing a monolingual culture in any particular corner of it is ostensibly forcing a specific, restricted, culturally dictated view of the world upon its members.

May I suggest that this has something to do with the way you express yourself LW. One minute you get all aggro, then you act surprised when people get aggro back. And then you try to make out like you were saying something reasonably. You weren’t. If you stay calm people will engage with your points more often. They’ll talk with you less, but the quality of response improves.

“I'm bi-lingual myself”

I’m impressed.

“zero effect on my "world view."”

I’m disappointed. It changed mine.

“by requiring fluency in English, I'd think that if it affected their world view at all, it would expand it,”

Interesting argument. Actually it’s one I totally agree with. That’s why schooling these days is so focussed on increasing students’ linguistic repertoires so that they know when to use a specific language or dialect.

But I think I just noticed something about LW’s rhetorical techniques here (you’ll be proud to know that Aristotle would be impressed LW). She brings up the doctor example because it’s one we’re much more likely to agree with. There is certainly a decent case for her on that point. But by extension I’m supposed to agree with everything the anti-multiculturalists say. And I don’t. I like hearing different languages in the streets. I don’t have a problem with coming across grocery store owners with barely minimal English. I even like it. Apart from a few life/death situations, I like this aspect of diversity.

“go to Indonesia. You're not going to find any of your beloved diversity”

Exactly my point. That is why I love Australia so much. Because you can’t get that barely anywhere else on the planet.

“I'm married to an immigrant”

I knew this. But he’s an Anglo by birth and culture, so claiming this as an appreciation of diverse immigration is falling into the same trap you accused me of.

“Champas - Australia is about to get even more multicultural”

Hopefully they come to Brisbane.

“this is NOT rocket science:
If your saying”

Nor is correct grammar rocket science, drmiler. Yet another bloody doctor who can’t speak English!!!!

“The modern multiculturalism movement advocates diversity without unity.”

Rubbish. I have advocated diversity within Unity quite explicitly in my original post (remember it?). I am a proud Australian who likes multiculturalism.

The comments I have ignored were not engaging enough to warrant response.
on Apr 26, 2005
Now to return to the original topic, I will restate this in the hope that some AUSTRALIANS might have some thoughts on OUR NATION! If you don’t want to believe that we are diverse, I don’t care. We are. PB? Muggaz? Maso? Mig?

You accuse me of not practising what I preach.Well in a fairly short time on Earth (much of which I have spent being extremely shy), I have been good friends with all of the following types of Australians:

• 2 Indians
• 2 Aborigines (One of whom could speak Aboriginal English)
• 1 Trinidadian-Australian
• 1 Muslim Malaysian
• 2 Indonesians
• 7 or so French
• 2 Czechs
• 1 Vietnamese
• 2 Belgians
• 1 German
• 2 Sri Lankans
• 1 Swede
• 1 Argentinian


And what I speak of above is the sort of cultural diversity that some people in my country complain about, and I’m sick of it. I’m sick of people saying we are in danger of being swamped by Asians. I’m sick of people who complain about the grocery store owners and secretaries who only speak minimal English. I’m sick of people whinging about street signs in Chinatown written in Chinese. I’m sick of people who say it’s a grave sign when you come across stores that only accept Yen. And I’m sick of TV current affairs shows that speak of the horror of finding doctors who barely speak English.

I’m tired of that being the dominant discourse. I’m tired of having a Prime Minister who’s old enough to remember the good ole days of assimilation and the White Australia Policy. I’m tired of having a PM who, like his hero, Bob Menzies, seems more patriotic about the British monarchy than he does about Australia. And I’m tired of having a PM who sees me and my fellow Australians for nothing more than our economic value.

I think it’s time to stand up to these racists and say where we stand. To say what we want for Australia. What we want in OUR future, not what the 65 year old PM wants from HIS past. I think it’s time that those of us who believe in that sort of Australia stood up to be counted and said proudly again that we bloody well want to live in a multicultural nation, because that’s what makes us proud to be Australian. I’m bloody proud to be part of a culturally diverse Australia and anyone who isn’t is bloody unAustralian in my view, not the other way around. I think it’s time we reclaimed the right to be proud Australians who want to reaffirm their love of multiculturalism.
on Apr 26, 2005
Let's go back to Champas's article. So Australia's on the right track. It'll take some doing when it comes to significant multicultural diversity, but that's a good start.
on Apr 26, 2005
I find it un-Australian that you know the second verse of the national anthem.
on Apr 26, 2005
Champas, not much else to say, except I apologize for going over the top in my responses. Having said that, I do stand by some of the points I have made. Anyway.......

Australia is one country that I would love to visit some day. It just seems so far away, and frankly, I just don't have the money right now. But, it does strike me as a multiculturally fascinating country and with both a beautiful and alien landscape.

It's too bad that you're saddled with a PM who apparently overlooks what's beautiful and fascinating in order to further an extreme and ideologically based agenda. My original point is we here in the US are experiencing a similarly unfortunate convergence of events that have led up to this backlash consisting of fear and loathing. We will get our countries back. We have to.

One more point...... I'm a girl.
on Apr 26, 2005
“go to Indonesia. You're not going to find any of your beloved diversity”

Exactly my point. That is why I love Australia so much. Because you can’t get that barely anywhere else on the planet.


If you're going to quote me, quote the whole passge CS. It's very dishonest of you to not do so. My quote was:

Go to China, go to Japan, go to the Congo, go to Syria, go to Italy, go to Brazil, go to Mexico, and go to Indonesia. You're not going to find any of your beloved diversity if every country has to be equally diverse within itself.


Very, very dishonest of you, CS. But I'd like to address your mangling of my quote. Indonesia is a bad example for you to cite because it actually is quite diverse. It's one of the few countries where hundreds and hundreds of native languages are spoken by thousands or millions of native speakers. However, what is wrong with Japan being Japanese? Or Ireland being Irish, or Egypt being Egyptian? They all have their distinct flavor that makes it unique from every other on earth. Do you feel that every country should engage in population swaps so they have exactly the same mixture of diversity the world over? Should every country be 21% Chinese, 18% Indian, 5% American, and so on?

“The modern multiculturalism movement advocates diversity without unity.”

Rubbish. I have advocated diversity within Unity quite explicitly in my original post (remember it?). I am a proud Australian who likes multiculturalism.


I'm sorry, I thought your name was "Champas Socialist," not "modern multiculturalism movement."

Let me ask you, how exactly do you go about creating a diverse union without assimilation? What do you do when you've imported masses of people with vastly different cultures who don't share your views on how wonderful diversity is? At what point in the process of diversification do you saySTOP! That's enough!? Are you going to force these newcomers to cherish diversity--force them to assimilate? What happens if they become the majority, or simply powerful enough to impose their will on you? The only people in the world who actually show an unbridled infatuation with diversity are white, western liberals. If you want to implement that policy, it would appear you need a white liberal power structure to be overseers.

I enjoy the diversity of the world. But I don't visit Japan, or Mexico, or Argentina, or Egypt, or Italy, or England, or Ireland or Greece or any of the places I've been with the intention of seeing another version of America or Canada.

Have you ever watched the Amazing Race? It's a reality type show where teams of two race around the world in order to win a million dollar prize at the end. Along the way they perform local cultural tasks, eat local food, visit local landmarks, and interact with locals. They see the good the bad and the ugly. That experience would be lost if your idea of diversity were shared worldwide.
on Apr 26, 2005
Firstly thankyou all for returning to topic. LW is right, the rest was getting very tedious.

I'd like to explain why I felt a need to write this article. Since about 1972, Australia has been very concerned with trying to establish its own identity as distinct from the mother country. What does it mean to be Australian? And for a period of about 13 years, we defined ourselves as proud multiculturalists. For the past 9 years we haven't explicitly abandoned that, but I think we are not saying it anymore, and as a result we have let the anti-multiculturalist rhetoric gradually take a hold of our country's identity. At the last election, we elected to live in an economy, instead of a society. It is time to reclaim our identity for the future. You can't legislate cultural tolerance, but just as the shock jocks are influential opinion-makers, so are our elected representatives. And I for one would like to have a PM who sets an example by making inspiring speeches about their love of multiculturalism.

Eastern, there was nothing dishonest intended, I felt I addressed the points you raised in the full quote, but as this forum is getting long I was trying to keep the quotes to the bare minimum.

"However, what is wrong with Japan being Japanese?"

Japan can make up its own mind about what it does. I am talking about Australia, as I am entitled to do. We are a great nation because of our diversity.

"how exactly do you go about creating a diverse union without assimilation? "

That depends on how you define assimilation. I think I've aready addressed this question in my original post.

"What do you do when you've imported masses of people with vastly different cultures who don't share your views on how wonderful diversity is?"

I already said that there are certain things we have in common as Australians. If you want to call that assimilation, fine. It's not what I intended by the term, but let's go with it. A love of diversity is something that I think does have to be assimilated. You wanna live here? We are a peaceful, diverse nation and we're going to keep it that way.

"The only people in the world who actually show an unbridled infatuation with diversity are white, western liberals."

As I've outlined, I've hung out largely with people of colour and I found them to all highly value diversity. Toblerone is an example.

And I hardly think the maintenance of a reality TV show is a good reason to abandon multiculturalism. But I get your point about diversity across the world, and yes I love that about the world. Incidentally though I don't think that multiculturalism is going to result in a world monoculture. Consumerism is more likely to do that. Cultures will mix differently in different parts of the world and will form new cultures. But I'm not forcing Japan or Ireland or anyone to go with this. I want Australia to go that way. And I feel an affinity with Americans who want to see their country go that way too.

dabe, apology accepted. But I don't believe in gender ;> As I said to LW, if you make your arguments calmly, people will engage more intellectually.
on Apr 27, 2005
dabe, apology accepted. But I don't believe in gender


--Wasn't there a star trek TNG episode about a alien race that had no gender...?
on May 25, 2005
I’m tired of having a Prime Minister who’s old enough to remember the good ole days of assimilation and the White Australia Policy. I’m tired of having a PM who, like his hero, Bob Menzies, seems more patriotic about the British monarchy than he does about Australia. And I’m tired of having a PM who sees me and my fellow Australians for nothing more than our economic value.


Me too, Champas, me too. I'm sorry I didn't see this until now, as I would have liked to have been part of the initial discussion raised by this article. I have always thought of Australia as a multicultural society. I haven't looked at this as a thing to be proud or ashamed of, just a mere fact. At high school, my best friends were of Dutch, Maltese, Yugoslavian, Italian and Australian backgrounds. But I didn't see 'race' or 'colour', I saw like minded people whose company I enjoyed.

Some of the replies here use the presumption that reading a bunch of subjective statistics (and all statistics are subjective - if you believe anything else, then here, let me hand you some more wool to pull over your eyes) gives the reader an unswayable knowledge of the subject matter. How the hell would anyone know what a place is like until they've lived there? I think at best, this attitude is arrogant.

I love my country even if I don't know the second verse of the National Anthem. But my wife does and she was born in Karachi.

Cheers,

Maso


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